That's not effective...

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That's not effective...

Post  tlc247 on Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:33 pm

This thread is a rant. Just so you know.

Often, when I'm looking at different options for different armies, and I come across an idea, I quickly hear the following:

"Well, it's alright, but it wouldn't be that effective against marines."

The reason behind all of these comments is the same, almost without fail. The weapon or psychic power allows armour saves. That's it. If it doesn't deny an armour save, it's crap and not worth taking.

*rolls eyes*

Okay, so maybe I'm the only marine player who ever fails an armour save, but I don't think so. The only power weapon my Death Company has is carried by the Chaplain, but the sheer number of attacks they dish out on the charge (not to mention the +str, +init, and re-rolls to hit and wound) have been brutally effective in my games. Granted, power weapons would help that statistic out, but they would also make an expensive unit even more expensive. Eventually, I'll have some power weapons/fists and even Thunder Hammers, but I feel safe in saying that most players would rather not eat a charge from my Death Company, even without the power weapons.

Let's compare two options:

Librarian power "Smite" from the base codex. Str 4, AP 2, Assault 4
2x Twin-linked Autocannons. Str 7, AP 4, Heavy 4 (but on a dreadnought, it doesn't matter)

I'm not saying this has actually happened, but I get the feeling people would rather take the Librarian power than the Autocannon, because it denies armour saves. In doing so, they ignore the armour punch, the re-rolls to hit, and the ability to wound on 2s instead of 4s.

While Zak is right and statistics don't seem to matter much for some people, let's take a look at them anyway (just for fun). Statistically speaking, Space Marines fail one-third of all armour saves they have to take (with the obvious exception of Scouts and Terminators). This is one of the reasons the Ork "green tide" army is so devastating. When they hit close combat, they may not hit with power weapons, or even hit that hard (str 4 on the charge), but the sheer number of armour saves they force a unit to take is enough to destroy a combat squad, and seriously hurt a 10-man squad.

Let's take something a little closer for comparison.

Plasma Cannon vs. Autocannon on a dreadnought.

Well, if it's on a vehicle, it seems obvious that you'd take the Plasma Cannon, right? Granted, with the blast template you can hit more models than the Autocannon, and you don't have to worry about Get's Hot rules. But statistically speaking, only one-third of the Plasma Cannon shots won't have a scatter arrow, and with BS 4, the average scatter (16 out of 36 shots) is 2-4 inches. If you're shooting at a squad, you may be able to place it in such a way that you can suck up some scatter and still hit the squad. If you're shooting at a Land Raider, you're a moron and deserve to lose your shooting phase. You can't even glance the armour with Str 7. If you're shooting at a transport or Land Speeder, even 2 inches has a good chance of taking you off the hull of the vehicle and keeping you from being able to damage it. With the Autocannon, not only does your ballistic skill play a greater role in whether you hit, but because it's twin-linked, you also get to re-roll your misses. More often than not, you will hit both shots, giving you an extra chance to pierce the vehicle armour. Not being a blast template also keeps you from EVER accidentally hitting your own units, which can be devastating (and humorous).

Let me be VERY clear. I am NOT trying to say that the Autocannon is better than the Plasma Cannon. I'm still just saying that I believe we sometimes pay a little too much attention to the AP of a weapon, and not enough attention to some of it's other potential benefits. In the above example, the Plasma Cannon is usually the best option for anti-infantry, but I believe the Autocannon is a better multi-purpose weapon. Don't be surprised to see my dreadnought sporting a Plasma/TL-Auto combination for a few fights. Wink

As another example, it only takes a single wound to force a pinning test. More and more units seem to be fearless, but having had a squad of terminators fail a pinning test, (Land Raider go boom.) let me tell you... pinning tests can be huge.

Last example. Nobody (myself included) seems to use Missile Launchers much. Especially not in Heavy Weapons squads. But I'm looking at it for the next tournament list. You don't have much chance of destroying a Land Raider (not much does besides Lance and Melta, though), but you have str 8 to take out light/medium armour, and you have str 4 blast templates to force armour saves on infantry squads. It's versatility could be more effective overall than the more focused approach.

Just want to throw it out there... the ability of a weapon to deny an armour save is big, but it isn't the only thing that can make a weapon useful. *coughhurricanebolterscough*
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Re: That's not effective...

Post  Guest on Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:35 pm

wait was this directed at me? i remember being asked about my opinion, so here is it again.

in regards to the auto cannon- i've always said i have no use for auto-cannons, and i've always submitted the assault cannon as a better choice, not the plas; of course the auto cannon is a better multi-purpose weapon than the plas! but lets look at the assault vs auto:

strength- the auto cannon is better by one point. this means it will wound most things on a 2. the strength 6 assault cannon will wound things on: a 2 as well. it is rare that you will be shooting at infantry where that s7 will give you an advantage (not saying there isn't- tyranid MCs, demons etc)

vs infantry- again, s7 won't wound normal infantry any better, and the assault cannon has not only more shots, most of the time is twin linked as well, same ap, but it also has rending.

vs tanks/ vehicles- s7 would be better, but 4 s6 shots with rending takes it in my opinion, cause it rends! example: against armor 13, you need a 6 to glance with a auto cannon. with the assault, you need a 6 as well. but with the assault, you get more shots, and IF you get that 6, you PEN, not glance.

price- same price on a dread. you can get a second auto cannon for 5pts. if you want. the plas/auto cannon combination sounds DEVASTATING! love the idea. but how bout a assault cannon/ missle launcher combo. i think it would have a slight advantage vs infantry, but the auto cannon/ ml combo would have a slight edge against armor (cause of the range and the auto cannon is twin linked.)

range- the auto cannon wins. it'd be good for sniping rhinos, and other things.

vs transports the twin linked auto cannon wouldn't be bad, but a misslle launcher would be better. same range, the krak missle is s8, (instant kill coptas) and the frag would better an auto cannon against light infantry.

also, your right about the rocket launcher- i wanna run them vs orks: their vehicles have shiz armour, plus the blast will still have the ap and strength to kill swarms. perfect. and i know your thinking what im thinking- combat squads, 2 a squad, ah yeah!

if it works for you, take it! for me though, the auto cannon is like a stubber: a weapon that is awkwardly stuck between two better weapons, that can't quite for one reason or another, find a solid reason for me to take it, especially cause i can only really take it on dreads and preds, and i can take assault cannons with them.

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Its cause we- all- play- marines.

Post  Guest on Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:43 pm

pinning isnt that good vs marines
marines get armor and feel no pain vs auto cannons. with smite they don't.
m launcher aint bad, but krak marines still get 2+ armor, and feel no pain. plas cannon they dont. lascannon they def don't, and it has a chance vs land raiders.

with my bad rolling (you've seen it!!!) i need guns that KILL, not allow a freaking 3+ that always saves. again MARINES.

lets face it, marines are an easier race to play, and are readily available to buy for cheap (er). we all play them. and certain things work better vs them, so those are the weapons you'll see.

sounds like you wanna play vs some new races- dont we all!

i mean alex, sam, and kyle play orks and nids. but then, sam has marines, so does kyle.
fact is, rant or not, there are too many marines. its why you see the weapons you do, and get that response.


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Re: That's not effective...

Post  tlc247 on Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:16 pm

While you've mentioned the AP on a weapon and disregarded it in the past, Scott, you aren't the only one by any means, so no... this was not directed at you. I mentioned the autocannon as much as I did because it is a really good example of a weapon that gets overlooked for many of the reasons you mention.

The issue I seem to have with the Assault Cannon is it's accuracy. I can't count the number of times I've tried to shoot something, only to miss three out of four shots. In my Apocalypse match vs. Kennan, I did that two turns in a row with my Autocannons and was only saved by the twin-link reroll.

Most Assault Cannons are actually NOT twin-linked. Twin-linked Assault Cannons are available in two places (if there are more, remind me). The Baal Predator, where they provide some valuable anti-armor potential to a vehicle that is otherwise limited to an infantry killing role. The other place is on a Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer (three places if you want to count them separately). While Land Raiders are awesome, they are also very expensive and for BA, only available as a transport. Don't get me wrong... I'd rather have them as a transport than a Heavy Support, but it has kept me from being able to take them in the past.

The Autocannon is only available in two places for Space Marines. Either arm of a dreadnought can be upgraded to carry them twin-linked, or it comes standard on a Predator (it's a waste there, imo, not being twin-linked). The option to carry a second pair of Autocannons on the offhand arm of a dreadnought is extremely useful. While I haven't played THAT many games with the dreadnought, it has not been difficult to keep it out of close combat, and the extra shots have been far more effective than a storm bolter. While my Death Company dreadnought *shines* in close combat, my normal dreadnoughts always seem to get chewed up and spit out if they try to close combat anything. That is probably my biggest reason for being happy with what my autocannon dreadnought has done so far.

I've played the Assault Cannon dreadnought more than anything else, believe it or not, and for some reason it just does not want to work for me. The shots that don't miss don't want to wound or pierce armour, and almost never rend. Statistically, rending an Assault Cannon shot from a dreadnought (one shot from the four it rolls) should be around 50% (once every other turn), but my stats are far, FAR less. I love the weapon, and love to field terminators and baal predators with it, but it's been "less effective" on my dreadnoughts for reasons I don't understand. I blame Chaos.

In comparison to the Missile Launcher option for the offhand on a dread, I can't offer in-game experience. But I see the autocannon as a better option in most cases. While the blast template can be great vs. infantry, and the Krak Missile is str 8, the Autocannon option still has the benefit of being twin-linked, reducing my reliance on luck. My marines still haven't figured out which direction the missile is supposed to come out of a missile launcher, so it's difficult to justify that "single die roll" we talk about. You know... the one that always fails. The other thing I want to mention is that a dreadnought can't split it's shots. This forces your tactics with the Missile Launcher to be heavily determined by your other weapon. If you have the right weapon (Assault, Auto, or Plasma cannons), the flexibility may serve you well. If you took twin-linked Heavy Bolters or Lascannons, you aren't likely to need a second type of missile. For my own tastes, I'd have a hard time taking the Missile Launcher as a companion to anything but the Lascannon, and that leaves me only two shots a turn (one twin-linked) from an expensive unit.

The Autocannon could really use a stat update, but obviously that isn't going to happen anytime soon, if at all. If it were Heavy 3, AP 3, it would be much better balanced with the rest of the weapons options, even without Rending. But this would require Games Workshop to change a weapon that has been almost iconic in its stats. It would be like changing the bolter or shuriken pistol.

I never meant to offend anyone with this post, and I really hope I haven't. :/ It also wasn't meant to be a discussion on the autocannon. It's just a good example of a weapon where I think people concentrate more on what it can't or doesn't do than on what it can and does.

And I'd never run an Autocannon that wasn't twin-linked. Just saying.
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Re: That's not effective...

Post  tlc247 on Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:26 pm

Pinning vs. Marines is heavily dependent on the HQ choices. Obviously no good vs. fearless units, and if you have a Captain on the board, then LD 10 isn't going to see very many cases of them failing the check. Honestly, it's rare that you'll see failed pinning tests with most armies. But like Seize the Initiative, it can be a brutal turn of events when it happens, so it's still worth forcing the check when you can. I certainly wouldn't try to build an army around it, though. Razz

While I've had some really amazing armour saves on my marines, I've also had some really amazing armour fails on my marines. While denying a marine his armour save is nice, I still think focusing on it can cause us to overlook other benefits and uses a weapon might have.
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Re: That's not effective...

Post  tlc247 on Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:31 pm

Scott,

I've seen you fail some dice rolls, absolutely. I've also seen you pull off some amazing dice rolls. Honestly, your assault cannons are better tank busters than a melta weapon at half range or any lascannon I've ever run. I suspect that is part of our differing opinions on certain weapons. Wink
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Re: That's not effective...

Post  Guest on Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:06 pm

you can also get assault cannons on storm ravens

yeah two twin linked is the only real way to run auto cannons in my opinion. also i rarely will take a non twin linked assault cannon. your right, it just misses and then where are you? without enough shots to rend.

the other thing is you run alot of dreads (and why not with the BA codex!) and where else would you put a auto cannon? even so, i like the assault cannon for multi task, and the plas for infantry. i'll stick with a melta for tanks. cheaper, and i expect to get my dread in quick anyways.

but yeah bad thing is we play against marines too much. that means we'll bring the same effective (but boring) weapons so we have a chance.... take Santiago: he can get it done, and i like playing him cause hes a challenge to use, but a big part is also the fact that not alot of other heroes are that good in our codex VS MARINES! once again, no power weapon means Gabe seth is watery. tycho, to put it nicely, has no real reason to cost so much. Astorath costs a ton so you can have lots of DC- too expensive and they get away from you alot of the time. dante has s4 t4, which means his hero killing power is mediocre. hes AWESOME at deepstrike, but then again, lots of points to just get shot up. he not as versatile as i would like. (no Eternal warrior!? WTF!!!!?) and we've already gone over sanguinor... also, our captain options are bull shiz.
now, i'll run a chappie- the bonus he does for the squad is nice. only thing is i have a termi armor one, which means either i deep strike (NO!) or landraider (LOTS OF POINTS just to bring him). so not so much. i want a jump pack chappie to be honest.

so i come back to ol steady. yeah he costs alot, people dont like him, (sorry guys, but after all, you all should know how to kill him.) and i get tired of the same ol thing, but really, there are games where hes saved my butt. the only well rounded, fairly priced hero we have.

in any case no offense taken at all!

in regards to my rolls- take my last 5 games as an example. holy. shiz.

fear the obligatory 1!!!

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Re: That's not effective...

Post  tlc247 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:17 am

Lil Finnigan wrote:fear the obligatory 1!!!

Oh, I fear it, my friend. I fear it. Sad

Also found that twin-linked Assault Cannons are available on a Razorback. I suspect it would be a fairly simple conversion to use the ones from the Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer, and may be a good option for versatility. Not sure I feel it's worth the same price as the TL-Lascannon (maybe, though... 4 shots vs. 1) or the Lascannon and TL-Plasma Guns (still my favorite).

In browsing through my codex, I found the following VERY IMPORTANT (to me) piece of information. I should probably post this under the Rules section, but it's late and I'm heading to bed soon.

On Page 60 of the Blood Angels codex:

Blood Fist

The blood fist is the standard close combat armament of many Blood Angels Dreadnoughts. A blood fist is a Dreadnought Close Combat weapon, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. ***If a Dreadnought is equipped with a blood fist and a force weapon, it must choose which one it is going to use in each round of close combat, but will still gain one additional attack.***

*Dance of joy*

On a different note, I don't think Mephiston is supposed to be able to Deep Strike via Wings of Sanguinius. If his Wings counted as a Jump Pack for that purpose, he should be listed as having Descent of Angels. I know the rule says that any model with a Jump Pack has that rule, but every model that comes standard with a Jump Pack also lists it in the Special Rules section. I would consider the following option/compromise, but I doubt you would be willing to accept it:

Since Deep Strike via Jump Pack is supposed to represent them skydiving in from a low-flying Thunderhawk, Mephiston could do it, but he would need to make a psychic check. Failure would mean he falls to his death. I know we still have not confirmed whether or not a psyker can use the same power twice in one turn (if anyone has seen a definitive ruling, please post the reference... I'm curious to know either way), and we have played that you can, but in this circumstance, getting the power off at the right time would be critical to keep him from falling to his death. I would consider a 50% chance of being able to attempt the power a second time, but if you failed the 50% roll, or the second psychic check (very unlikely, but still possible), he'd be killed. Last, but not least, if you're using a psychic check to pull it off, other people should be able to use their anti-psyker abilities to mess him up. I would half their normal range to represent the vertical distance, and measure it from where you would end up if you succeed, but Eldar, Tyranids, and Psychic Hoods could definitely mess things up.

Even though Mephiston isn't Eternal Warrior, he is tough as nails and I would consider going with d6 str 8 hits with no armour save allowed. Landing from a skydive with no parachute seems similar to getting hit by a Monstrous Creature, and momentum would have you rolling and bouncing when you hit the ground. I probably wouldn't give you the 50% chance of a second psychic check, though... the odds are already in your favor that you survive, even if the possibility remains that you die.

As a fun note, we could also give him a small blast template, str 10, AP 2 to represent him hitting the ground if he failed (felled?). Since he wouldn't have his wings, he'd scatter the distance rolled on two dice and could land on some other models. Very Happy

Like I said, I don't expect you'd agree to something like that, but it's late and my imagination is running rampant so I'm coming up with crazy rules off the top of my head. Razz I've already changed the original rules and added ideas several times since I started.


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Re: That's not effective...

Post  Guest on Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:23 am

hahahaha oh man-that would actually be kinda fun.

as regards to the dreadnought- absolutely you get an additional attack. but, the dreadnought close combat weapon and the force weapon are still two different weapons- ergo, the force weapon strikes at s6, and the dreadnought close combat fist cannot force weapon insta-kill.

splat template, hahaha.



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Re: That's not effective...

Post  tlc247 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:26 am

I edited the post, Scott... the changes would probably make it more tempting.
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Re: That's not effective...

Post  Lil Red on Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:43 am

I like the splat template, that's funny!

Santiago however wouldn't be able to DS with his wings because he doesn't always have them, and you can't cast spells before the game has started to give him them so that he could DS. It's a good thing though because that means he could ride in an empty rhino or razorback where most "winged/ jetpacked" models can not.

As for psychic abilities. On page 50 of the ruled book (little one) under "psychic shooting attacks" the last line says "...(but still can not use the same power twice a turn)."

Another reference, but not universal law, is Eldrad's section in the Eldar codex. Under Eldrad's Staff (pg.51) it says that his staff allows him to use 3 psychic attacks a turn if he's not in combat, and it gives him the special rule that he can use one that he has already used.

Under the farseer section (Pg. 26) under the spirit stone section it says that the spirit stone allows a farseer to use two psychic abilities a turn, but they can't be the same abilities.

Both the above mentioned psychers are the best in the game and they can't use the same ability twice without a special staff. I'd have to rule against using the same ability twice in a turn unless your character says that you can.
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psychic power

Post  Zac Nelsen on Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:50 am

Oh you silly imperium marines. I'm not sure I can even get an assult cannon, but I do have a reaper autocannon (its twin linked). I rely on outdated technology and daemonic gifts. Anyway, from how I understand it you can absolutely make the same psychic test twice, as long as it isn't shooting UNLESS you are a monstrous creature, dread, or it specifically says otherwise (ahriman) my codex allows tzeentch psykers to cast 2 powers a turn. It says as long as they aren't shooting powers. If it doesn't say you can't I don't question it.
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Re: That's not effective...

Post  tlc247 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:11 pm

It was never my intent with the Librarian Dreadnought to imply that I get a Str 10 Force Weapon. The way we had been playing up until now was that I didn't get an extra attack for the second close combat weapon because they are both "special weapons". The clarification on page 60 just means that I get the extra attack. I always assumed I would have to choose one weapon or the other.

Using the same psychic power twice in the same turn by the same psyker is one of those things that seems to have been overlooked, but always assumed, by the staff at Games Workshop. Overall, if you dig into the rules, they have actually done a really good job of clarifying stuff like this, but this particular rule somehow got missed.

Chris is correct. There are a lot of things written in various places that imply that you can't use the same psychic power twice in one turn. Since most psychic powers wouldn't stack with themselves, it's no big deal, but some do. Might of heroes gives my Librarian, or any member of his squad, +d3 attacks in close combat. Can an Epistolary use that power twice to give a member of his squad 2-6 additional attacks? While GW hasn't specifically stated a ruling one way or another, I get the impression that unless stated otherwise, Librarians aren't meant to use the same psychic power twice in a single turn. I suspect part of the reason they didn't mention it is because psykers can't generally use more than one power in a turn anyway. At least, according to the basic rulebook. The truth is something else entirely.
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Re: That's not effective...

Post  tlc247 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:15 pm

The "can only use a particular psychic power once per turn" rule is probably something that was better clarified in previous editions of the game, and overlooked in this one. Just a thought.
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Re: That's not effective...

Post  Guest on Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:55 pm

from how i understand it, this means you can only use any power once per turn, but you can test all you want for it: use doesn't happen if you failed to cast. (key word use)

example: i miss casting smite, but as an epistolary, i'm granted two spells a turn. therefore i can try again, using my last power. if i get it, i can use it. if not, i can't. the whole "once a turn" to me sounds like if you were to get smite off the first time you can't USE it again. you have another power you can use, but it can't be smite.

there are special people, like ahriman and eldrad that can use the same power multiple times, EVEN IF IT SUCCESSFULLY GOES OFF. example, eldrad using fortune three times to fortune three different squads- he has three spells he can use, and his ability says he can use the same one all three times. (normal psykers cannot.) and ahriman can use all his for shootting attacks.

so as i see it, you can TEST AGAIN for the power you failed to cast, but once it goes off, you've used it. (unless you special- *pats eldad understandingly on his helmet*)

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Re: That's not effective...

Post  tlc247 on Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:20 pm

It's easier to accept that idea if you actually fail the psychic check. Harder to accept if you succeed at your psychic check but have the power dispelled.
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Re: That's not effective...

Post  Guest on Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:24 pm

i think its easiest to go by the literal wording: you may USE anyone power once- it doesn't say anything about testing for it again if it gets dispelled or doesn't go off, IF you are allowed more spells do so.

use to me means you actually USE the spell, as in, its effects go off. the "whole once a turn thing" (the wording at least) refers to spells that go off. as in, "you USEd it, now you can only use it again and stack the effects if your allowed to in your character entry)

it never mentions failed rolls or trying again. or maybe it did, i just didnt see it.

also, im totally fine with not casting deepstrike- it rarely finds a use anyhow.

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Re: That's not effective...

Post  Guest on Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:45 pm

*sigh* Page two of you two bickering, on the other hand this I can actually contribute to.

Okay, most people can only use one psychic power a turn: this means if they fail to cast it the have indeed used it! They just used it unsuccessfully, as opposed to using it successfully.

This is even clearer with psychic shooting attacks, they count as firing a weapon, and the best comparison would be attempting to shoot. You still shot if you missed yes? You just shot unsuccessfully.

So then looking at it, if you attempt a psychic power and it fails, it fails and you've just used it, albeit unsuccessfully. I can see perhaps an argument over non-shooting attacks as they are far less strict(so that smite example is a definite no, but I can see an argument over say sheild of sanguinius I still say it's the same).

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Re: That's not effective...

Post  Guest on Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:53 pm

thats not being argued- we know that if you missed your chance to cast, you lose that chance. as you said, most casters only have one chance. THE ISSUE here is, what about if your allowed more than one spell a turn?

difference with the shooting example is, you have to test to shoot to begin with! say you test to use smite, and it doesn't go off. you didn't USE smite- it didn't work!

now say you test to use it and you pass your test. you fire smite, and miss you to hit. thats USING it, and failing (or unsuccessfully using it).

tyler's might of heroes is a good example: you can cast might of heroes on your squad once. that means they get 1d3. you can't USE the power again, but if you failed the first time to cast, for whatever reason, and you have another power, you can try again. but as soon as it goes off, its off.

all of chris' examples seem to assume you passed your psychic tests, and the power has taken affect. all the eldar codex does is let you use the same power on multiple times. it never mentions anything about failed tests or trying again, if you have multiple chances.

i still say USE a power means literally being able to use it.

And again no one is saying you can test as much as you want for a test. most have one chance- issue is, some have more

im with zack on this one


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Re: That's not effective...

Post  Guest on Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:01 pm

I know you can do that with non shooting attacks, but I don't think it works with shooting ones.

Using any psychic power counts as one use whether or not it goes off, we seem to agree on that.

But some models have more than one power per turn(farseer with spirit stones, epistolary, MoT). They may have used one use, but they have not used the power. They have still attempted a psychic shooting attack.

On the other hand I will bow to a consensus.


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Re: That's not effective...

Post  Guest on Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:18 pm

i edited my previous post


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Re: That's not effective...

Post  Guest on Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:24 pm

So did I. I'm regretting posting. Thought I could contribute. I can't.

So long as you think(and it seems you do from your examples), that attempting a cast counts as a use(so if you can only cast one power per turn no retrys), I'm rather ambivalent towards the rest.

I still think it's wrong but not strongly enough to argue for eternity.

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Re: That's not effective...

Post  Guest on Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:32 pm

heres what i submit for consensus vote-

a psyker that can cast one power a turn has one chance to cast. if he fails of it is negated, hes done.

if a psyker can cast two or more a turn, he has three chances to cast them. he can use one power to cast a certain spell, and if it fails, he can try again to get that spell off, though this now uses two of his powers.

shooting attacks as well, though it is with other powers, as soon as it goes off, your done: you can only successfully cast that power once, and you can only shoot one thing in the shooting phase to begin with. this keeps arhiman's power actually worth something, cause not only can he try again for that doom bolt, he can shoot it numerous times. and eldrad can cast fortune on as many as three squads; if he fails to cast, he can try again, though he now only has two more chances to get it done.

now, i only really use one psyker, and most of his powers are bonuses to be honest, so it doesn't affect me as much as others ( i don't usually play versus sisters, demon hunters, wolves or marines with hoods). but what about people that use alot of psykers? chaos would be screwed and alot of their stuff crappy if it can get negated and even though it says they can cast more than one a turn.



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Re: That's not effective...

Post  tlc247 on Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:13 pm

We should probably move this post into rules discussion at this point.

Short version: I vote that no, a psyker may not try a second time to use a psychic power that he has failed or had dispelled.

I believe everyone is in agreement that if you attempt your psychic power and fail (or have it dispelled), you have lost one of your psychic powers for the turn. Essentially, you've used your psychic ability, even though it was used unsuccessfully. That same reasoning that everyone seems to agree to would also indicate that if you can't use the same psychic power twice in a turn, that your failed attempt still counts as having used the power (unsuccessfully). The argument that you can continue to attempt to use the same psychic power again after a failed attempt could also be used to justify a psyker with only one ability being able to continue to make the psychic check until it goes off because until it does, he hasn't actually used it. Obviously, this is not the case. :/

I'm also willing to go with a consensus ruling on this. Personally, I would be far less trusting of a customer support answer on this, simply because it isn't as clearly stated in the rules. I'm going to see if my friends online have any insights on it, and I'll share anything they have to contribute.

Also, Stepfan, don't sell yourself short. There's no reason your opinion doesn't count as much as anyone else's here. If you didn't know anything about the rules, that would be one thing, but you obviously know enough to contribute. Just because everyone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean you don't have a valid point or a right to share your opinion. Smile
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Re: That's not effective...

Post  Guest on Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:45 pm

exactly stephan- dont worry about your opinion being discounted or cause irritation- no worries

again, no one is saying you can test til you pass, it takes up one of your powers to try.

in truth i can see it both ways, i'm just thinking in terms of the wording. and it doesn't say you can't test again- it just says use the same power, which, like tyler said, i think its more to avoid stacking bonuses. i don't think they were even thinking about failed tests. (or they would have said something)

in any case im good with whatever- lets also ask: who here can negate powers? I can, sisters can, nids can, wolf definitely can, marines can, knights can, eldar hella can-

orks? chaos? guard? Dark eldar? Demons? Necrons? um.... you guys out there? no? that sucks- especially cause most your guys powers rocks shiz.... seems a little unfair :/




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Re: That's not effective...

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