Anyone else think this is weird?

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Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:48 pm

So I was bored the other day looking online at some cool warhammer army lists and I found something weird.

No one else in the world seems to love buff HQs like we do.

I thought this was crazy because really the HQ is the commander of your army doesn't it make sense to try and make them as bah dass as possible? Most army lists that I saw were basically buy the cheapest HQ you can and as many troops as possible. I literally saw lists that said "Don't spend anymore than 100 on your HQ or else it's a waste!"

Now everyone should know that I love troops. I play a lot of them and for good reasons. They can capture points, they can be adjusted to most situations decently (most times), and most of all they are essentially the backbone of your army.

But what about these weak sauce HQs? Really an HQ shouldn't be just something to fill up a required force organization slot. It should be a powerhouse! Something that can be worthy of being called the leader of your army.

Now I can only say that I have played Warhammer with this group of people. I haven't been to any other shops or played with anyone who knew what they were doing outside of the crowd at the shop so I need someone who has whored around the other shops (shame on you if you have Paul has been nothing but good to you!) tell us if you have noticed people in other places playing cheap HQs to max out their troops or if we aren't the only ones who love to see entire squad pounded into dust by a single model.

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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Zac Nelsen on Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:15 pm

i figure if i have to at a legal MINIMUM spend 90 points for my codex, i better throw in at LEAST another 60 to make the guy worth it, otherwise he is a fancy champion with a new title and can be targeted in close combat, but that is the way my army works...
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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:25 pm

dude im with you, i think taking cool heroes and hqs are part of the fun

- it adds character (no pun intended) to the game
- the add perks to your armies, which help with developing playstyles (like shrike or lysander among many)
-some are tanks, other buffers, others are both and some are just cool to see with all the crazy stuff they can do (squigs!)

i think people avoid them for a few reasons

-some are hecka expensive, and take lots of stratedgy to get thier points worth.
- in earlier additions, hqs were barely more powerful than elites, and still cost alot. they were considered a waste of points. now, GW seems to be moving us back to HEROVILLE, where your heroes are crazy good. they say its to add flavor, i say yeah, but they also can sell more this way.



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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:27 pm

i see where they are coming from but HQ's don't just have to be titans of cc. I have several support hq's that i love. I agree to a certain point but it really all depends on the scenario.

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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:29 pm

yep, got to pick that poison. there are specialized hq's that aren't worth it everygame, but can be just the thing for others.

i really think its cause in old codexes hqs were expensive and not really that good.

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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  tlc247 on Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:04 pm

I know in the Blood Angels codex, the cheapest HQ available is 100 points, bare-boned, ready to die to the first salvo of incoming fire. Actually, I'm not sure how much a bare-bones Captain is since they suck so bad, but the other options are a Librarian (100 points), or a Reclusiarch (130 points), and with no upgrades, they don't do much more than fill the requirement. The special characters can also fill the role, but are obviously more expensive than the ones I listed here.

The people saying to not spend more than 100 points on your HQ obviously don't know how to use them correctly. Even a bare-bones Captain sitting behind a rock "cowering in fear" takes the Leadership of all my Marines from 8 to 10... a very significant upgrade, imo.

On the other side, you can easily blow tons of points on upgrades for an HQ, only to have them get popped by a Power Klaw/Fist. As with any choice in your army, know what they are, what they can do, and make an informed decision about whether a particular upgrade is worth the points. For example, I run my Reclusiarch with a Combi-Flamer. This lets me put him in front of the Death Company when they disembark and usually nail an obnoxious number of models with a flame template before assaulting. By comparison, if I try to shoot a standard Boltgun, I can't assault at all. Sad Worth 10 points? Absolutely!!

Space Marine Captain can be given Terminator Armour w/ a Power Sword and Storm Bolter for a certain number of points (no book handy, sorry). By comparison, I can take Artificier Armour, a Power Sword, and a Storm Bolter for fewer points, have the EXACT SAME STATS (Iron Halo gives 4+ inv either way), and still be able to make Sweeping Advances. That is a good example of a way to waste points on an HQ choice. I'm disappointed that GW didn't notice the discrepancy, but their loss. Very Happy
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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:21 pm

an excellent example- the blood angels captain. i mean WTF? i thought BA's were supposed to be artisans, where the freak is my artificer armor? its cool, i'll just take a few more points, get something better, and get back more points.

i see where their coming from a little bit- but on the other hand, you could spend wisely and get a killer hq!

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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:12 pm

Following the ETC it makes sense. I can see why but up until recently the reasons they do it did not apply to this store. Even now we're sort of in between. Most players play the scenarios straight out of the book and with 1v1. I've seen plenty that came down to a troop choice on both sides. A situation to avoid competitively. I get where they are coming from and to be honest I'm as guilty of HQ points sink as the rest of you.

I don't think it's a problem either way, we simply play differently then most other places.

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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:03 pm

why the hell doesn't mephiston have a melta pistol?

Also i can make some pretty mean autarch's for just 100pts. Same with farseers. While if i tried to run a wolf lord at 100 points base he'd start crying the first time he went up against an armor save of any kind even a 6+. (if fatty was rolling i'd get 6 wounds and no kills) Basic chain swords don't belong on heroes! I guess the main problem i see is that I.. Play wolves. If i don't play the heroes advantage than what is the point? Its kinda what my army is all about. Hence the fact that i can take 4 in a normal match.

THAT being said!!

Best heroes(hq's) in peoples opinions??... Just the one's meant for the job

Psyker: Eldrad or Arhiman.
Hero Killer: Mephiston
Squad Killer: Kahrn
Marine Killer: Yeriel
Support: Logan Grimnar

I'm sure everyone will disagree. This is just from what i've seen and my opinions. Eldrad can cast 3 Psychic powers a turn and can make your eldar wreck people's dreams!! While Arhiman can shoot so many powers off he can turn an entire squad to dust. Mephiston is the best at what he does. (like wolverine but can't regenerate...) Hitting on 2+with kahrn and the sheer amount of attacks he gets is insane. Yeriel can center a large S6 AP3 blast over himself. He also attacks at I7 with 5 power weapon hits that always wound on 2+. And Logan can swith his squad between Fearless, Relentless, Preferred Enemy and Tank Hunters.. Plus he's a bad ass.

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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:43 pm

Im with marshall- alot of times, especially in current editions, GW has really made certain armies about taking heroes.

my list

most annoying award- Eldrad (his runes affect you til he's dead. can cast lots of spells and that 3+ invuln. is crazy with fortune.)

most WTF why don't she die?!- Celestian (if you dont know why, pray you never find out)

laugh out loud funny- Lukas the "a- hole" trickster (seriously, a titian? how big is that bomb?)

"That don't make no sense!" - Hive Tyrant (your monsterous OP unit getting cover from guants? THE HELL?)

"OH S#IT!" award- these are the scariest of the scaries, the ones you can't ignore. when they hit the table, game plans flip a 180, and things get real.

-lysander
-arjack (that no IC rule)
-Skulltaker
-Yriel
-Gaz
-Pask (with a suitable tank)
-Archon with his pretty boys
-Skarbrand
-abbaddon
-Champion with blizz giver (FUH!)

"the guy you always want to see what he does, and never get to" award: typhus


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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:48 pm

i would like to add

Favorite Chaos character that i have NEVER EVER seen used: Lucius the Eternal.

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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  tlc247 on Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:05 pm

It's hard to limit Yriel to "Marine Killer", imo. I have to agree with Marshall in giving Mephiston the "Hero Killer" award, but the following characters (that I'm aware of) deserve special mention, partly because they have the serious potential to give even Mephiston a run for his money in a close combat duel:

Yriel. His initiative, ws, and 2+ power weapon (not to mention # of attacks) mean he has the very real possibility of killing Mephiston in a single round, especially with the assistance of a Farseer. His blast template close combat weapon is B R U T A L, and unlike Mephiston, he has an invulnerable save. I haven't checked to see if he has Eternal Warrior, but I doubt it. If not, that is his single biggest weakness, especially in a fight against Mephiston. Mephiston wouldn't even need to use his str boost power or force weapon to insta-kill. Sad

Lysander. 2+ armour save, 3+ invulnerable save, and knocks Mephiston to Initiative 1 in the second round (assuming he hit and wounded, which is a fairly safe bet)

The Sanguinor. I'm not saying he's worth his points, but he does have the same saves as Lysander, lots of attacks, high WS and Initiative, Eternal Warrior, and a special ability designed to help him kill an enemy character.

I'll give special mention to Santiago. Technically, he's still Mephiston, but Scott does an incredible job of running him, making him extremely dangerous. (b'_')b
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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:28 am

While Yriel isn't eternal warrior he is T4 Smile

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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:13 am

tlc247 wrote: I'll give special mention to Santiago. Technically, he's still Mephiston, but Scott does an incredible job of running him, making him extremely dangerous. (b'_')b

thanks!

lysander is the scariest of those three. sanguinor also, but his s5 means he's not as scary, though him not being an IC is a damper.
yriel does have t4, which is nice. my prediction is Mephiston with one wound left, and here's why:

yriel would need to get the charge, which would be hard to do. if he doesn't, then he has 4 attacks, which, unless there are perils, isn't enough. though i must say, it would not only be close, but VERY VERY close.

squad killer: ragnar blackmane/canis
all round scary: night bringer

new poll: vehicles? categories are deadliest, best support, best options, and coolest fluff wise

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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Dr Crotch on Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:04 am

i would like to point out that my fav HQs for my ork army are the simple ones. Warboss w/ eavy armour and uge choppa. 85 points i believe.
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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  alex clements on Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:17 pm

same here kyle i like a warboss and old zogwart as my hq choices. there cheap simple but can be effective
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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:43 pm

Dr Crotch wrote:i would like to point out that my fav HQs for my ork army are the simple ones. Warboss w/ eavy armour and uge choppa. 85 points i believe.

yeah dude, you can get get s8 on the charge and not go last can't you? doesn't a big choppa add +2s? and furious charge +1s more? instant kill stuff, and you don't have to wait and go last!

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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:01 am

No joke! Warboss w/ big choppa > Tyranid Warriors.

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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  tlc247 on Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:01 am

In the vehicle category, I absolutely *have* to throw in the Necron Monolith. Especially after seeing it in today's battle, it is worth special mention for both what it can do and for how difficult it can be to destroy.

Fluff-wise, it's hard not to like the Ork's Looted Wagon. Putting together a destroyed enemy vehicle with bubble gum, duct tape, and bailing twine, and then driving it into battle? I like the story behind the Baal Predator as well, but I think the Looted Wagon takes it. Fluff on the Chaos Dreadnought is also very interesting, even if the fluff just gives reasons for the rules to be extremely dangerous to your own forces. Soul Grinder and Defiler have sweet looking models in addition to an interesting fluff story (I only know the most basic fluff on them, but it's a kewl idea in my opinion).

Most useful? If someone has anything that can compare to an extremely heavily armed fast skimmer transport capable of carrying both jump infantry and a dreadnought, with the ability to fire one more weapon than it should at a different target than the rest, and oh yeah... it's an Assault Vehicle. Yeah, let me know if you think you have something that can compare, but my vote is sitting on the Stormraven.

Best options? The large number of different ways that a dreadnought can be taken gives it my vote. Between BA and Vanilla, there are 6 models, and some of the upgrade options available are worth throwing them into a category of their own (thinking the Librarian dreadnought). On the other hand, I still remember a very effectively run Vyper from a tournament. The little AV 10 vehicle is a fast skimmer, can be taken in a squadron, and can be given every vehicle upgrade available to Eldar vehicles. I haven't seen anyone use one, but they can be extremely dangerous when used correctly. Especially in small matches where you're less likely to see stuff like Land Raiders.

Additional categories could be made for best anti-vehicle and best anti-infantry options, but that's an argument I'm not sure I want to get into. While they have specific roles they can play, the real test is how effectively you use them.
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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:41 pm

monolith takes it for most deadly
i think dark eldar raiders look way cool!
yeah, storm raven is way awesome. most useful for sure.



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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:00 pm

Favorite transport has to be a Wave Serpent. Hands down. Cheap enough to run more than 1. Capacity of 12 models and it can have a Twin-Linked Bright Lance?!?! Honestly any army should wanna kill for that. I know my wolves would.

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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Dr Crotch on Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:52 am

im sure you all know my opionion on sweetest vehicle goes to the BW, but im letting you know again deff rolla ftw! and i love ork dreads, and all dread really lol.
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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:27 am

i like dread heroes! or hero i guess ;]

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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Lil Red on Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:52 pm

Hambone wrote:why the hell doesn't mephiston have a melta pistol?

Also i can make some pretty mean autarch's for just 100pts. Same with farseers. While if i tried to run a wolf lord at 100 points base he'd start crying the first time he went up against an armor save of any kind even a 6+. (if fatty was rolling i'd get 6 wounds and no kills) Basic chain swords don't belong on heroes! I guess the main problem i see is that I.. Play wolves. If i don't play the heroes advantage than what is the point? Its kinda what my army is all about. Hence the fact that i can take 4 in a normal match.

THAT being said!!

Best heroes(hq's) in peoples opinions??... Just the one's meant for the job

Psyker: Eldrad or Arhiman.
Hero Killer: Mephiston
Squad Killer: Kahrn
Marine Killer: Yeriel
Support: Logan Grimnar

I'm sure everyone will disagree. This is just from what i've seen and my opinions. Eldrad can cast 3 Psychic powers a turn and can make your eldar wreck people's dreams!! While Arhiman can shoot so many powers off he can turn an entire squad to dust. Mephiston is the best at what he does. (like wolverine but can't regenerate...) Hitting on 2+with kahrn and the sheer amount of attacks he gets is insane. Yeriel can center a large S6 AP3 blast over himself. He also attacks at I7 with 5 power weapon hits that always wound on 2+. And Logan can swith his squad between Fearless, Relentless, Preferred Enemy and Tank Hunters.. Plus he's a bad ass.

A Hive Tyrant would battle well for the support category!
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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

Post  Guest on Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:11 pm

Indeed. Hive Tyrant is rockin.

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Re: Anyone else think this is weird?

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